The Museum, Reimagined: Sonia Winner on Purpose-Driven Leadership

The Museum, Reimagined: Sonia Winner on Purpose-Driven Leadership

00:41
Mara Kamat
Welcome back to In Her Land, the podcast where we celebrate women who are leading with intention, impact, and heart. I'm Mara Kamat.

01:10
Carrie Aguilar
And I'm Carrie Aguilar. Each week we sit down with women who are building bold paths in their careers and communities. Today, we're thrilled to welcome a visionary leader who is reshaping one of Cleveland's most beloved institutions. Sonia Winner, CEO of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History.

01:31
Mara Kamat
Welcome, Sonia. We're so excited to have you.

01:33
Sonia Winner
I'm excited to be here.

01:35
Carrie Aguilar
Yay.

01:36
Mara Kamat
Sonia is leading one of the most ambitious museum transformations in the country. With purpose and imagination, she's connecting science, nature, and the community in ways that truly resonate. We're so excited to have you on our podcast today.

01:52
Carrie Aguilar
We always love to start by getting to know the woman behind the title. Your journey has been anything but linear, from fundraising at Columbia to practicing law to serving as dean at Case Western's Weatherhead School. Take us back to the beginning. Where did your story start and what drew you down this path?

02:10
Sonia Winner
So I think that, you know, everyone has a story about how they started, and you really don't know. I think when you're going down one path, how it's actually going to end in many ways and also what opportunities will come up. So I think that, you know, I have to say that even when I was in high school, I was always working. I was working. I worked at Gold Circle, which is like this. It was the precursor to Target. And even at the time, I loved.

02:40
Carrie Aguilar
Wait, where. Where were you working?

02:42
Sonia Winner
Oh, in Centerville. I didn't grow up in Cleveland. I grew up in Centerville, Ohio. That is between Dayton and Cincinnati. And it gave me such responsibility. I was the youngest assistant head cashier in the whole company. I was opening and I was closing, and I loved that idea of service and helping people. And I think that I always wanted a job that was very focused on the customer or the client or doing something that would benefit the community. And even learning that skill set that every day you have to perform and know what the bottom line is, know what you did, how did you do it last year? How well did we do? I was always really fascinated in that part of working is, okay, we. We made this much money this. This year, but what did we do last year?

03:40
Sonia Winner
And kind of understanding that. And so then when I always wanted to go to law school, but it was always, I never wanted to work at a big firm. I always wanted to do something in public service. So I always saw myself using my law degree to help others. And so when I was in law school, I was a law clerk for the American Civil Liberties Union. And I really enjoyed that part of understanding the First Amendment, understanding how people who may not have had all of the opportunities to understand the law could. You could be advocates at the aclu. And also, it didn't matter what party you were in. It was about really, the boundaries of making sure that individual rights are protected. And so that really was very inspiring to me.

04:32
Sonia Winner
And so when I was a law student, I taught in a class called street law. And I taught in East Cleveland and Shaw High School. That's the second poorest school district in the entire state. So I had been at a very. The second biggest school, high school in the. In the state is Centerville High School, with a lot of opportunity, a lot of a big public school, a lot of opportunity for kids, big sports program, all of those opportunities. And then to teach. As a third year law student at Shaw High School, I was their legal advisor for the mock trial program. I went against my old teacher at Centerville High School in the finals of the mock trial program. And we came in number one.

05:24
Carrie Aguilar
Wow.

05:25
Sonia Winner
And we beat my alma mater and I beat my teacher, all of us as a team. And then went to nationals and we came in first in the country. The students did on their brief, and second in their performance, which I felt as if that was so great. The kids from Shaw High School, actually, their presentation on their brief was more important than their presentation orally. So we then I tried to erect this sign in East Cleveland so that everyone could be proud. Had a lot of challenges in kind of telling that story. So I was. And then I was allowed to be a clinical professor doing that. And so I was very motivated.

06:12
Mara Kamat
That's like, a big deal, though, to go from, like, finishing law school to then becoming a clinical professor like that. That's not something that's easy to do.

06:19
Sonia Winner
No. And I wrote the biggest grant that Cleveland States Law School had ever received in the history of the law school, my first year as a clinical professor. And it was. I really believe it was because we felt so passionately like, I even had my husband help, I had friends help, like, write this grant over Thanksgiving weekend. And I still remember my mother in law saying, well, what are you making? Like, what are you bringing? And she was so fixated. And I'm like, I don't care what I'm bringing. I'm worried about. I'm worried about the food. So we created this program called the Marshall Plan, and it was for teachers to learn more about the law. And we had 10 teachers who came to the law school, learned all these things about the law so that they could then go back to their schools.

07:09
Sonia Winner
And I'm so proud that one of the teachers that we had is now sitting on the Common Police Court.

07:15
Carrie Aguilar
She's amazing.

07:16
Sonia Winner
Was so motivated. She retired as a teacher, went to law school, and now Deborah Turner is on the Common Pleas Court bench.

07:24
Carrie Aguilar
And had you not done that? Had you not brought nothing to Thanksgiving that year?

07:31
Sonia Winner
Yeah, exactly. And it really was very inspiring to me. So. But the thing I loved the most about that job as a clinical professor was actually talking to boards about the impact of the work that we had done. So I loved. And so the dean came to me at the time and said, I really would like you to think about running the career services office. And I said, okay, Well, I had clerked for a judge. I had done different experiences, and before law school, I had worked at a big law firm. So he said. And so I became one of the first lawyers actually in the country to counsel students about their careers, as opposed to kind of a traditional career counseling background.

08:16
Carrie Aguilar
Is it, sorry, career services within the law school or career services for all.

08:20
Sonia Winner
Of CSU within the law school?

08:23
Carrie Aguilar
Okay. Oh, and it makes sense because you had all of these different experiences, so you were able to understand. Okay. So if this person came with these interests, that potentially they would be a good fit for. I love that.

08:35
Sonia Winner
And one of my colleagues said, everyone is going to want your job in a few years. And I was like, well, because I had this very weird. Like, I never went through all the traditional law firm interviewing Because I didn't want that. I wanted something very different. And so I was really encouraged that's okay to think differently about your law degree. And I've always thought about that, even in the people that I hire. I don't necessarily need to see someone who's had this linear job orientation because I'm really looking for what you're bringing, like what's your spirit, what are you really about and what you can contribute to the greater good of whatever the mission is of the organization that I'm representing.

09:21
Mara Kamat
Like that in and of itself is amazing. And as leaders and humans, I think that's such a key takeaway because it's so often that we feel we need to fit into a box or have a specific path, especially as women. Like the research shows that it's easier and we tend to follow a specific path that's expected of us or fall into cultural norms. And I love that you kind of step back and said, I'm going to get this law degree. But I know that I want my career to look different than being an in house lawyer, which would have been an easy and normal path.

09:56
Carrie Aguilar
Right.

09:56
Mara Kamat
And then the second piece of what you said I think is so impactful around like helping people think about their own leadership journeys as they think about talent and they think about building their organizations around. People don't have to fit within these boxes, but if they bring the right spirit and the right skill set, you can teach them across different industries and across different domains. And that's something I've taken in my career and I have found to be incredibly impactful and something for our listeners that I think they should consider for themselves and also the teams that they lead.

10:28
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I love that. And I mean to think about it, women, and I'll say, myself included, I think high performing women tend to be scared of looking. Maybe we like to look down a certain, what am I trying to say, a lane. We don't like to look. We're like, oh well, we have our goal. Our goal is a title, our goal is a salary. Our goal is fill in the blank.

10:59
Carrie Aguilar
And we don't like to look at what's happening to the left or the right because we're afraid that if we don't do what we think is going to be the next best thing to be able to get to the goal, we will actually be like if we have a gap in our resume or if we aren't, if we don't take that next associate director position, to get to the director, to get to the vp, to get to the senior VP title, to get ultimately to whatever it is, the CEO title, that we won't actually be able to get there. So I love hearing your perspective of hiring and also I think that's Wonderful.

11:35
Sonia Winner
Well, and, you know, and then I worked at Cleveland State, and then I was recruited to Case Western, and I had a wonderful mentor, Jerry Korngold, who was the dean of the law school. And we had just a fabulous experience together. And I was running career services, and he came in my office one day and he said, I need you to run the development office. And I said, why? Why would you. Why would I be good at doing, like, raising money? And I. And he said, because it's all about relationships. And I've remembered that. That anything about fundraising. I have never been annual fund officer.

12:16
Sonia Winner
I have always built the campaign and the big picture strategy and been a principal gift level officer, because I don't think of anything I do in my life as transactional, and I don't approach my work or the relationships that I have with people as transactional. And so I think that's really served me well. And without having any idea how to run a campaign, I ran a campaign and we secured the largest gift in the history of the law school during that campaign.

12:46
Mara Kamat
Congratulations.

12:47
Sonia Winner
Yeah, thank you. And it was really great. And then you know, Jerry decided to go back to New York, and I was lucky enough to have a second. It was like I had these two amazing deans that were kind of like really great marriages. Mohan Reddy at the Weatherhead School. I know Mohan personally, too, and I like Mohan. And I have drank champagne all over the world together, and it's just been so much fun. And we continue to be friends. And, you know, he said to me, I want you to rebuild this entire program. And he gave me, like, the total clean slate. He said, this is like a startup and you should approach it that way. And it was just so much fun to do that. And I think. I think we raised together over $65 million. And he was just so.

13:39
Sonia Winner
He is so charismatic and. But it was just so much fun. And I was able to recruit people who I have had worked with me before. And that's the other part, I think, of my career that I'm really proud of, is that many women want to work with me. Many working mothers want to work with me. I have a colleague who has four children, I have a direct report who has three children, that's never been an obstacle for them to aspire for their goals. I always want to support them. And we always had a general rul, you know, from six to nine, no one talks to each other because that's like story time, bath time, reading the, you know, all of the things we all know that we need to do. And my children knew that I am not nice after 9 o'. Clock.

14:29
Sonia Winner
And so we had that rule at my house too. I said, you. I said, I have two beautiful beds for two beautiful children and at 9 o' clock I turn into a witch. So I'm not nice after 9 o'. Clock. So. But then, you know, there's nothing like a woman who has a laptop. They're like, empowered to change the world. And it doesn't matter. We can do anything when they're talking to me. And the great thing about COVID is we all learned to confirm to everyone else in the world that, yeah, we didn't always have to be in an office cubicle to do our work. So I'm really proud of that.

15:07
Sonia Winner
Part of the trajectory too, is that I was able to work with really great partners, but also to bring other people along who happen to be working parents for them, to support them in their efforts. And I think the people who have worked with me would say that they like working with me because of that kind of atmosphere. They can say to me, I have a soccer game at 7 o' clock tonight, or my daughter has to have lacrosse at 4 and I'm going to leave early. And I'm like, go. And I don't think I've ever had to say to someone, you know, you can't do something, because I think flexibility is really important. So I did that. And then I was recruited to Columbia. And here's the story.

15:52
Sonia Winner
I had the full support of my children and my husband to move while they were still here. And my daughter finished high school. Wow. And so it wasn't easy, but I was so lucky. 110%. Now, some of his colleagues weren't supportive. Like, one of them said, well, your wife left you. And I was stunned by that comment because if I had been a man and gotten recruited to an Ivy League institution, as you know, I became the vice president there, that no one would have said a thing. But, you know, my husband really supported me and 110%. And he is like that today on any issues going on at work. Like, he's such a great sounding board, an advocate for me.

16:40
Sonia Winner
And I think that boy choose wisely when you're choosing a spouse, because if you don't have that, it makes working so much harder. And I'm not saying 110%. He rules the world, though, in the kitchen. Like, he has the cleanest kitchen I have ever seen. And I'm more of the slob in our relationship. But boy, oh, boy, you know, it's just so important that he was supportive of that, because then I spent six and a half years, but we also had this fun where he would come and he would bring our two standard poodles and drive in from Cleveland, and we would have this other life and this other relationship.

17:20
Sonia Winner
So, like, I think the message for women sometimes is you have to stay within your region or your area because of your spouse, but take the chance because you never know, like, what new opportunity it's going to give you. And it may also change your relationship in a much more positive way, in that way as well. And I think sometimes women are always afraid of that peace. But if there's an opportunity that, you know, hey, you have to live somewhere else for three years, do it. And it might really enhance your career and also enhance your relationship. So I'm here in Cleveland because I choose to be, not because I have to be. And, you know, I still miss New York and I miss all of that. But I guess then I came back to this great opportunity my children had loved.

18:12
Sonia Winner
This is very long, like, what I'm saying. My children. Okay, good. Well, so my children, you know, LaGuardia Airport is really the reason that prevented me from continuing to live in New York because it was under construction. But now it's so good. It's like the wizard of Oz.

18:31
Mara Kamat
Like, literally, I spend three days a in New York with clients now, and I'm so fine to do it because I love LaGuardia. So if I get delayed, the Delta Lounge is nice. Like, I'm good to go, my friends. So I hear you.

18:44
Sonia Winner
Except United doesn't fly there directly anymore, which. But. But it's beautiful there. But when I was doing it, and at one point it was like 2:00 in the morning, I was still stuck, like, and I was trying to get a taxi, and I said, okay, do I really need to do this? And so you just look up at.

19:03
Carrie Aguilar
The ceiling tiles that are falling down.

19:06
Sonia Winner
Yeah. And so I had met with the CEO at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History a couple of years before I made the decision. And I knew that there was excitement about this project. And I also knew that in University Circle, if you think about all of the institutions around, so the Cleveland Museum of Natural History is the legacy institution, along with the art museum and the orchestra. But it hadn't shined as much. It didn't have that sparkle. And so I knew that there was a lot of opportunity there. And so I joined as the chief Philanthropy officer. And, you know, I thought, oh, this is going to be such a kind of easy job. Let's be. Because I had a huge job at Columbia and it was. And then I discovered that the project was really over budget.

20:03
Sonia Winner
And the first phase, which was supposed to be 24 million, had been escalated to 60 million. And, you know, there's the story too, about women. We clean up a lot of messes in life. And so, and this is. There are a variety of factors of why that happened. And they made a decision that they would. They asked me to be the acting CEO. Look, it was in service to the organization. And six months later, they made me the offer. I mean, they did a national search and all of those things. And, you know, at the time, I have to say it was hard because I think that my predecessor was very highly regarded and a very highly regarded scientist, and I'm not a scientist. And I think she had a lot of community support and she recruited me.

20:53
Sonia Winner
So I had very much respected her. And so that was hard because I was kind of seen as the bad girl. Like, oh, what have I had done? But I had done nothing. But, you know, that. And that's another situation I think a lot of women get into where there's an obstacle. They've made a leadership change and a woman comes in and a lot of people aren't necessarily supportive of that or kind. And I guess, you know, everyone should give everyone the benefit of the doubt in any situation like that, especially if it's a woman, because we never have those natural networks that I think are built a lot, especially because I don't play golf and I hadn't been in Cleveland for a while. So those were all lessons, though, that actually made me stronger and more resilient.

21:43
Sonia Winner
Like, I'm going to get this done. And so were able to re scope the project, hire new architects, do all of these things. And were able to bring in the project on December 15th of 2024. It was two years ahead of the original schedule and it's slightly under budget. And we're all really proud of that at the museum, like what were doing.

22:03
Mara Kamat
And it's beautiful. So congratulations.

22:06
Sonia Winner
Thank you.

22:07
Mara Kamat
And for any of the listeners who haven't been out to check out the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, you need to go. It's absolutely gorgeous. The planetarium is so special. And like Aaron, my husband and I are so invested in it that we've chosen to have a celebration for our daughter there. And the reason being is to bring more people from the community into this amazing space where kids can learn and evolve and integrate in fun ways in science and hopefully continue to build more interest in STEM for girls longer term.

22:41
Sonia Winner
It's so important. And you know, the planetarium, it's really an interesting story about the planetarium. We have three astronomers. Two of them are African American women who went to the same high school at different times, but they were inspired by a teacher. And one of them went to Emory and the other one went to the University of Alaska. And then our colleague Nick, he went to Bowling Green, which is my alma mater. And so they all have these interesting stories and they're so passionate about sharing knowledge and especially with kids who for the first time may be coming to the museum. You know, there's some first time experience in natural history and it's either a dinosaur or the planetarium or it's something that really inspires you to learn more.

23:33
Sonia Winner
So we're really very proud of the talent that we've been able to attract to the museum. And the planetarium is one place where it's a real showcase.

23:42
Carrie Aguilar
So I have a nine year old and she's obsessed with science. We have been to the Natural History Museum, I think four times since it's opened. And most recently were actually in Boston a couple weeks ago and went to the Natural History Museum at Harvard. And one of the things that I saw there, it's like specimen after specimen, taxidermied animal after taxidermied animal. So I'm interested to understand from you and to give you a little bit of background about me. So my family, I would say were definitely like old guard natural history exam people. My brother has been for a long time affiliated with an organization that used to be loosely affiliated with a natural history exam through a past board member who no longer is on the board.

24:35
Carrie Aguilar
Because of that, I've spent many hours in the basement of the old Natural History Museum. So I know all of the specimens that hang in cold storage.

24:47
Sonia Winner
Yes.

24:48
Carrie Aguilar
And so I'm interested to know from your perspective how you guys came up with the space and how you decided to put all of this, like which specimens to come out, which specimens to stick, you know, like how you guys decided to orchestrate the space and the specimens and what went into those decisions.

25:09
Sonia Winner
We have 5 million objects that tell the story of life. So first of all, that in and of itself is just completely overwhelming to even think about. But the one advantage that I would say is we used Covid to our advantage. And here's how we would have 90 people on a call so that we. And we had board members who attended almost every one of our exhibit design meetings as well. So it was this experience where staff were talking, the board was talking, were all talking to each other. But we also did a community listening project. And here's the thing about the community, they don't like dark spaces. For the majority of people who do not come to natural history museums, because, remember, we have the trusted people, we have the people who are already in the basement.

26:03
Sonia Winner
But what we're trying to do is expand our audience. So they said they hate our dark spaces and there aren't enough bathrooms. So those were two very practical things that we could address.

26:17
Carrie Aguilar
Right.

26:18
Mara Kamat
And the old history museum was really dark.

26:19
Carrie Aguilar
Oh, very dark.

26:20
Mara Kamat
There were not lots of windows. There were a lot of installations and experiences.

26:24
Carrie Aguilar
Absolutely.

26:25
Mara Kamat
With just no windows and covered wall to wall kind of.

26:29
Sonia Winner
And carpet.

26:30
Mara Kamat
And carpet.

26:30
Sonia Winner
Yeah, carpet. A lot of shag carpet. A lot of brown. Yeah, a lot and a lot of brown. My least favorite color in the whole world. So one of the things that we decided to do is open up those windows. And we had a little bit of resistance, even from our staff, about the specimens. Oh, the specimens. The specimens. So I went to Los Angeles and I met with the curator who was in charge of paleontology. And I said, oh, my gosh, this is like Southern California. You have light coming in all the time. And he said, dinosaurs were a very successful species, Sonia, you can have them in light.

27:07
Carrie Aguilar
Oh, I love that.

27:08
Sonia Winner
And so that really were you like, can you record?

27:11
Carrie Aguilar
I need to record this so I can play it on loop.

27:14
Sonia Winner
Yes. And even our anti Warhols, everyone was so worried. We have this whole collection of the endangered species. Everyone was worried. Well, guess what? Our technology has advanced so much with lighting that we are good with putting out the Warhols. So we had them out and, you know, still some resistance about, you know, that they would be damaged because it's the kind of paint that Andy Warhol used. But nevertheless. So if you think about natural history and you think about the 1920s and 1920, when our museum was established, people never were able to see a lion in real life. People were never able to see an exotic bird. So when you showed those objects, that was super cool and people loved it, but they were very static. So the museum visitor of today, that's just not going to cut it.

28:08
Sonia Winner
It's great that you can show specimen after specimen, and that may help you for the first experience. But how are you going to get that person to come back and return and to learn more. And so our whole approach is a very inquiry based, where we're asking these big questions and we want the visitor to think about that and then come back and return and think about it some more. And because of Cleveland's history of health, the Health Museum is now part of our museum. It merged about 20 years ago. Health is such an important component, and so it's human health and the health of the planet. So we want everyone to be making these decisions about their own health and the decisions they make and what food they eat, what plants they grow, what kind of water, you know, about the water quality.

29:05
Sonia Winner
All of those things are really important in the conversation that we're having. And we wanted it also. This is the other thing that we wanted. We wanted people to be proud of this region and the unique geology and really of this region. You know, what happened? Why do we have these glacial grooves at Kelly's Island? Why is that important? Why is it important that we have these amazing wildflowers? All of those things we wanted people to feel. Clevelanders sometimes need someone from the outside to say, you're really fabulous and you're doing such a great job. And we had, we have this. We're the number one program in human origins in the world, and yet no one in Cleveland really knew about it.

29:53
Sonia Winner
And so we wanted to show our eight iconic specimens that are so unique and tell a story of Cleveland so that people would be like, I should be really proud of this region. So the whole museum was for this region and about this region, and what greater thing than to talk about a woman and Lucy and about the amazing journey and, you know, to talk about her life? And we have kids who come back every year on their birthdays to measure themselves against Lucy. And like, that's a great Cleveland story for our listeners.

30:27
Mara Kamat
Will you explain what Lucy is for those that might not know?

30:31
Sonia Winner
So Lucy is one of the discoveries that Don Johansen and his team and actually one of our current board members was on as a 17 year old. She was a Laurel student and she was Bobbi Brown. She actually has her Ph.D. doct Bobby Brown. She was on the mission that they did to discover and they discovered Lucy in Ethiopia. And you know, she is really, because of her iconic name, she was named after Lucy in the sky with Diamonds after that song by the Beatles. She's kind of this icon in human origins. There are actually, you know, they've found other specimens that are older, but she's really the most famous. And it really put the museum on the map when she was discovered. This made world news, just like Balto.

31:24
Sonia Winner
When Balto and his teammates came back to Cleveland, that made world news because it was during the Depression and people brought nickels and dimes and pennies of, you know, people, school children and maids and people from all walks of life to bring Balto.

31:38
Carrie Aguilar
My daughter is obsessed with Balto.

31:40
Sonia Winner
Who wouldn't be? And then, you know, you talking about specimens and the importance. We never know what mystery is. Each of those 5 million objects is going to be discovered and to convey in science. So Balto has been used in a worldwide research project two years ago on mammals. And so what we found out, the unscientific thing that we found out, is that it is much better to be a mutt than to be a purebred. And, you know, his resilience was of how he was built. So. So those stories, we never know what of those objects. And so the new museum actually allows us to bring those objects up because we have much more flexible space so people will be able to see even more of those objects. And listen, we opened the museum December 15th.

32:34
Sonia Winner
We're hearing that people want to see the canoe, they want to see more gemstones. I'm all for the more gemstones and more things. So that's great visitor feedback that we'll be able to use and we'll have the space now.

32:47
Mara Kamat
And that's amazing that you're getting people in, you're getting the feedback, you're listening to it and adjusting how you're responding. From a visitor standpoint and from a kid engagement standpoint.

33:03
Carrie Aguilar
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33:39
Mara Kamat
Have there been any moments that really stand out to you when you've had a visitor or a child there that you're like, oh my gosh, this job is amazing. This space is amazing. And can you share it with us?

33:50
Sonia Winner
Sure. So the great privilege we have is that we have a lot of school buses who pull up and to see a kid who has not been to the museum for the first time, walk in and then see a huge dinosaur. And then to see people, you know, taking photographs in the spaces that we wanted them to take photographs. And then, you know, on Thursdays and Fridays, we have a partnership with the Cleveland Institute of Music where we have music students who come in. And we also have opera singers, we have classical music being played. And so for imagine that kid who's 7 years old, who's never been to a museum, who's never been to a natural history museum, walking in on a Thursday at lunchtime, seeing this huge dinosaur and then hearing classical music for the first time.

34:39
Sonia Winner
And, you know, the kids are in charge at our museum. Like, it's not an adult oriented place. And think about how the world has changed so much. There aren't very many places where the kids are in charge and the kids feel safe to explore. And, you know, Chris Ronane, our county executive, he tells this really funny story about his own son, Joe. How Joe got lost in the museum, or so Chris thought. He was lost, and he couldn't find him. And he was like, oh, my God, where is he? Where is he? And he found him. And his son said to him, dad, like, I've got this. This is like my museum. You don't have to worry about me getting lost in here. I'm good, I'm good.

35:24
Sonia Winner
And like, what a great privilege that is to be in a place where people feel safe, especially with everything going on in the world and people not feeling safe. I mean, to me, that's the great privilege, is to see the smiles and excitement and the energy.

35:39
Mara Kamat
Yeah. So in this spirit of energy, one moment that's really stuck with me that I experienced at the museum was I was able to hear from Margot Lee Shutterley, and she spoke at the museum about her book movie Hidden Figures. And I just personally was so struck by that experience that it's not only this space where you have the specimens and Lucy and the dinosaurs, but you're also bringing contemporary thought leaders into this space to share their stories. Can you share the idea of how this came to be, the Conversations with Women in Steam series, how that came to life, and how it's helping to highlight the contributions of women in science.

36:23
Sonia Winner
So I think that it's so important for especially women, but we invite boys to learn about this too. You can't be exposed to science and technology and math unless you're taking the right courses. You'll fall behind. And a lot of women, they hate math, you're told, even in law School. I was told there was going to be no math. And then you get to corporations or other things. But I think that it's really an important mission for us to share not only the exposure about the right coursework you should do and the specimens that we have and all those things, but to provide mentors and to provide mentors who can show a non traditional path and say, oh, I look like that person. Or like to show what a field scientist.

37:16
Sonia Winner
We did a program, for example, 12 hours away in Australia, what field scientists who are women have to carry when they're in the field. So were able to show, girls, you have to have certain things that men don't have to have in the field. And this is how we do it. And so a little girl would say, wow, okay, they're digging, they're doing super cool things, they're getting dirty. And I could do that too. And it's not as if there's a barrier. And that's the most important thing, I think that we show. One time we had a parent, we did a stem night, the stem night that we're doing. And a parent said, I drove in a snowstorm from Akron because my daughter wants to be a scientist. She's in seventh grade. No one in my family went to college.

38:04
Sonia Winner
I have no idea how to guide her. But I heard about your program and like, to do that's. It's so beautiful. And to see, you know, the little girls and the little boys kind of come alive when they hear these stories of resilience. Because I think the story of Hidden Figures is really a story of resilience of like, okay, people didn't want me to, like, learn the calculation to get John Glenn back. But I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna go to the library and I'm gonna hear these spaces.

38:36
Mara Kamat
What's so funny about that is I came home from that night and I was like, olivia, I heard this speaker, she wrote Hidden Figures. And she's like, why didn't you take me? Like, I had no idea you were going. I would have wanted to be there. This is my seventh grader who has talked about it at school. It's like part of their curriculum. And she was like, so mad at me for not taking her. And I felt terrible. But at the same time, I was like, I was relieved to know that, like, these are the people that she's learning about. These are the experiences that she is having. And she was lit up in a way to want to be part of it.

39:12
Sonia Winner
That is so Great. I mean, we had so many interesting parents, I thought, in the audience. One is a clothing designer and I had met her a couple of weeks before at a leadership event. And I said, oh my gosh, like, why are you here? It's so exciting. And she said, oh, I wanted to expose my daughter to this because I'm a very creative person. But I want her to kind of understand that science is also creative. And I think that sometimes that's missed, that there's a lot of creativity and entrepreneurship in the sciences and people kind of miss that it has to be a very static kind of experience or education.

39:53
Sonia Winner
And I think what I've learned the most from the exposure to such wonderful scientists is how entrepreneurial they are and how they have to think about their work in a way that is extremely creative.

40:06
Mara Kamat
What I think is so meaningful too, and you touched on this a little bit earlier, but I want to pull it out a little bit more, is an evolving life that are such a powerful message about how our everyday choices impact both our health and the health of the planet. And that's something that I'm not sure 10 years ago were having that discussion and were talking about. But today is so important and so important to my children, actually as they look at their lives and sustainability and like the fact that we have a garden. Yeah.

40:38
Sonia Winner
You know, it's really important, I think, to ensure that we are relevant. And a lot of people sometimes think that science is this add on. You know, there's a lot of statistics around that. Teachers don't feel comfortable teaching science, maybe exposure of 40 minutes in a week. And so one of the things that we really think about, we did a survey about science and what Americans. This was a national survey about what Americans think about science. 90% of Americans believe that science is important, but 50% feel as if they're falling behind. And so if you think about that and then you have these kids who are going to be inheriting an earth that has changed.

41:24
Carrie Aguilar
Right.

41:24
Sonia Winner
Regardless of how anyone feels about climate change and climate science, we have temperatures that are changing. We have fires, we have fires where there weren't fires before. We have all kinds of things that are going on in our lifetime.

41:43
Carrie Aguilar
In the last 25 years, our Earth has changed.

41:47
Sonia Winner
My sister in law's sister, my sister in law Julie has a sister Holly. And Holly lives in the San Francisco area. She has to have a fire kit now. She never had to have one 20 years ago, an emergency kit of how to do, how to get. And you can see it Even in Lake Erie, our muscles have changed. They have gotten smaller and smaller. And so things are happening in the world and insect populations. The chief science officer is an entomologist. So we're always talking about bugs. And if you really care about the Earth, you better care about the bugs, because the birds eat the bugs and all of the life forms that grow crops, all of us are part of this larger chain of life. And we all think, oh, if animal goes extinct, oh, poor animal. But that's happening to us.

42:48
Sonia Winner
We're the ones who are also changing. And I think that's so important to be sharing. And. And that's really different than a natural history museum that's just showing objects that we collected in the 1920s and having those conversations. And even if you disagree, so we had Bill Nye, we're also going to have another person, right, who disagrees with that approach. And that's okay, too, because that's where we have people, the discourse is important.

43:19
Carrie Aguilar
I mean, it's the whole point.

43:20
Sonia Winner
That's the whole point. And so.

43:25
Mara Kamat
From a sustainability standpoint, my kids are so passionate about it, and it's integrated into their curriculum at school. And so the fact that you're also integrating it into, like, how you reimagined the museum, I think is beautiful. It's also brought a lot of beauty to our life. And my kids wanting to garden, to reduce plastics, to have composting, like, that's a different way of living than how I grew up. And they are teaching me and our family to live like that. And that's a beautiful place to because maybe it will better for our environment. We gotta pray that, like, their generation will figure out what our generation has yet to figure out.

44:02
Sonia Winner
Well, you know, we're really also proud. A lot of people don't know this. We're the only museum in the United States that has a platinum LEED certification. So that's a leadership in Environmental Engineering and Design. And we're really proud of that because it really allows us, you know, to live our mission. And the architecture now aligns with that mission. Before, it really didn't tell that story, but we're telling the story of native plants. And all of our animals that are rescued are native to Ohio.

44:37
Carrie Aguilar
I imagine what you've built here in Cleveland is sparking national conversations, just like you were talking about the LEED certification. Are other science institutions taking notice? What kinds of dialogue is this transformation inspiring beyond northeastern Ohio?

44:53
Sonia Winner
So we're really proud that we've been recognized as one of the most beautiful museums in 20, 25 and 1 of 8. And we're really excited. We're gonna find out if we're the finalists in a few months.

45:06
Carrie Aguilar
Fingers crossed.

45:07
Sonia Winner
Yes. And darn, I have to go to Paris to get that award. It's like, so hard. I think. I think that it's important that we started the conversation by having this beautiful building. But the most important part of the work is going to be what goes in the building, and it's the people and the programs. And so I think for any institution, they are also talking about this. But I think the unique thing about our project is that people are asking us, how did you do it? But also how unique it is to this region. Because if you go to a natural history museum, they're all going. Some of them are very generic. You could put them in any other place. And I think that, you know, kudos to our trustees who really said, we believe that we should make something very unique.

46:01
Sonia Winner
And I think that's what has. We've garnered national and international attention about. Is that story about be true to yourself. I think a lot of museums feel as if they can't be a beautiful place. So why can't a natural history museum be as beautiful as an art museum? And since we sit next to our next door neighbor is this beautiful art museum, it's not an or.

46:30
Carrie Aguilar
Right.

46:30
Sonia Winner
Do you know, that's the message, I think that people are understanding now is that, you know, we do not compete with any of our colleagues at any of the institutions in Cleveland. We are their friends. It's like a both and it's and so that when we do well, other people do well. And when we increase our attendance, we're increasing the attendance for other people. And so I think that's the story that people are trying to understand and asking me more questions about, like. Like, how did you do this? How were you able to be collaborative in that and not think of it as a competition? And to me, it was about really thinking about this dream that the directors and trustees had for over 20 years is to think about what do we really want to build here?

47:24
Sonia Winner
And to hope that we continue to evolve as an institution, that institutions are only as good as the way that they're able to change. And when you take any business or any institution that's been around for 100 years, many of those places haven't been able to change. And then they fail. And so for us, to me, it's telling that story about the region and telling about how important it is to be good stewards of our own health and the health of the environment. And that's really resonated and been able to give us, you know, national and international attention.

48:03
Carrie Aguilar
That's wonderful.

48:04
Mara Kamat
Thank you for sharing. And finally, what's bringing you joy right now in your work at home? Anything. What's bringing you joy?

48:12
Sonia Winner
So I think that what is really bringing me joy is understanding that my adult children are living lives of their own that are independent of me, but yet they want to connect with me. And that really brings me joy that we can be friends now. Like, I'm always going to be their mother. And I always say, I'm not your friend, I'm your mother. Which is, I think, a very important message to send. But it's just really nice to be able. Like, they ask me for advice, and it's not just me trying to give them advice, like, about things. It's like, I need your advice on something. And I really appreciate that now. That gives me a lot of joy.

48:55
Sonia Winner
And you know, I've always loved animals, so anything that I do with my dog brings me joy because sometimes I talk to her on walks and she's the best listener. And she comes to work with me on Mondays because we have a policy that we allow dogs to come to the museum on Mondays because we aren't open. And so she is the number one enthusiast for the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. And if I say, do you want to go to work? She is up and it's Monday morning and she is ready to go.

49:26
Carrie Aguilar
She knows it's Monday.

49:27
Sonia Winner
She is the most enthusiastic employee of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. So that brings me a lot of joy to see how happy she is to our listeners.

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49:36

Mara Kamat

Don't miss the chance to experience the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. It's a place truly transformed by science and imagination and the incredible leadership of Sonia, who spent her time with us today sharing her story and sharing the transformation of the museum. 

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