Balance, Barriers & the NBA: Insights from Simone Jelks

Balance, Barriers & the NBA: Insights from Simone Jelks

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00:41
Mara Kamat
Welcome back to In Her Land, where we highlight amazing women who are leaders in their field in and around the land. This week we're excited to welcome a total force, someone who is changing the game, both literally and figuratively for professional basketball.

01:21
Carrie Aguilar
That's right. This week welcome Simone Jelks to the studio. Simone is the seventh female NBA ref and the only second black woman named as a full time NBA referee. I feel like this bio could be miles long, but I will try and hit the high notes. Simone is a Cleveland native, played basketball at USC before playing professional basketball in both Croatia and Puerto Rico. She also holds two master's degrees, one in public health from Case and one in urban secondary teaching from Cleveland State. Prior to reffing, she spent years teaching Spanish at schools in Cleveland, including the all boys school Ginn Academy. She's also an author, a mother, and someone who has mastered the art of the just on time arrival at the airport. Simone, thank you so much for being here.

02:12
Simone Jelks
Thanks for having me, ladies.

02:14
Mara Kamat
I'm very familiar with the just on time arrival to the airport.

02:17
Simone Jelks
Yeah, it's.

02:19
Carrie Aguilar
I love it. I went. So I was traveling. I think I was going to Boston. No, I wasn't going to Boston. I was going somewhere recently and I was like, almost one of the last people on the plane. And Simone just like walks up behind me. She's like, I'm here.

02:35
Simone Jelks
Which, you know, that wasn't typical either because I normally am one of those that get. I get to the airport fairly early.

02:44
Carrie Aguilar
Oh, you do?

02:44
Simone Jelks
I do because I check a bag and a lot of reps don't check a bag, but I check a bag because I'm on the road so much and I need stuff. I do. Like, I need a lot of stuff. So I normally get there early. I don't know what happened that day when you were on the same flight.

03:01
Carrie Aguilar
I was so Impressed. I was like, oh, this is great.

03:03
Simone Jelks
I was stressing out. Cause I was like, whoa, I'm about to miss this whole flight.

03:07
Carrie Aguilar
And then I think your seat was like 1B and mine was like, 43C.

03:14
Simone Jelks
Not my dime. That's the company's money.

03:19
Mara Kamat
So, Simone, we always love to start at the beginning and to learn a little bit more about you. Can you talk to us about your career shifts while playing basketball at usc, being on the pro teams in different countries, and then pivoting to education and now to refereeing at the top of your field? Would love to hear about your journey and what it's looked like.

03:42
Simone Jelks
So it's interesting because I actually never. Like, if he would have asked me when I was 18, are you going to be an NBA referee? I'd have been like, no, I hate refs. Like, what? A referee is not a. It's not a career. Like, my mind was not even there, so I actually wanted to be a veterinarian. And then when I went to college, the lab times interfered with practice times, so I had to scratch that out. Playing at SC took a. That's Division 1. So it was like basketball or nothing. So USC was amazing, especially being just a regular Cleveland girl. Going to a University of Southern California was not where people when I was in high school were going. So that was an accomplishment in and of itself. And then after that, I actually didn't know.

04:37
Carrie Aguilar
Did you go pro right after?

04:39
Simone Jelks
No. So most people in college will go pro right after. But my college experience was filled with ups and downs, a lot of adversity. So my numbers, like, my scoring numbers in college were so low. I was a defensive player. And when you're trying to go overseas, they want to see offense. So it took me three years to go from. I didn't start until I was 26, playing professional basketball. And most people go right out of college, so that was a little bit of adversity.

05:11
Carrie Aguilar
So you had already gotten your master's then?

05:13
Simone Jelks
I'd already had one and was living on my own and completely thinking I was grown and independent. And then I went and I was offered a overseas contract to play in Puerto Rico. And then it was like I was taking steps. I really wanted to play overseas. But then when I got overseas, I was living in a bedroom with, like, three other people. And I'm like, you know what? I've been really independent the last three years. This is not what it was cracked. This is not what it's cracked up to be. So I was like, great. Had that experience When I. And then I. Croatia was second, so Puerto Rico was first. Then it was Croatia. And then when I was in Croatia, I just woke up one day and realized, I think I'm done playing basketball. Like, there's nothing.

06:04
Simone Jelks
There's, like, there's nothing motivating me anymore. Like, I crossed it off the list. I still love basketball, but there's something else out there.

06:12
Mara Kamat
How long were you in Puerto Rico and Croatia?

06:15
Simone Jelks
Just one season. Each country or. Yeah. And it just didn't take me very long to realize I didn't want to keep playing basketball, which was. Yeah, that's, like. It takes the people. That's a really big thing. Like, if that's your whole life or if you've been playing it for so long, and then you just are like, you know what? I'm done. I just knew. I just felt it.

06:37
Mara Kamat
That's a big decision to make. After you had this career very focused on basketball. And so as you were transitioning out of that, what was next for you? What were you thinking? What did you do to make that transition?

06:50
Simone Jelks
So that was semi. I think I probably had a little bit of depression because that's it. People don't talk about it enough, and they don't prepare athletes enough for the transition from when you stop becoming a professional athlete. That's a part of your identity for such a long time. And then you just wake up one day and you're like, okay, now I'm a regular person. So I literally went from being this isolated, accomplished student, athlete and professional athlete to I'm back home and I'm substitute teaching at Richmond Heights because I don't know what I'm doing with my life anymore. And I'm working at Trader Joe's. So, like, that is, like, how do you handle that? And that's where the education. That's where the master's in urban secondary teaching came in.

07:38
Simone Jelks
So that pivot was because I was literally at home substitute teaching, and I was in this really troubled classroom with all of the troubled kids, and I loved it. And then the interim principal said, have you ever thought about teaching? I was like, what? I don't. Like. I was like, I will knock one of these kids out if they, like, talk to me crazy. And he was like, no, that's exactly why. I think that's exactly. That's why you should. He was like, no, they actually gravitate towards you, and you actually handle them very well. And I said, And then I said, well, let's do that. So I did an accelerated Master's program at Cleveland State and loved it. Like, absolutely love teaching. Absolutely loved. It was the most gratifying job for me, but the pay was really terrible.

08:28
Simone Jelks
And I was like, okay, now I have two master. I have a bachelor's degree from usc. I have two master's degrees. And, like, I'm living paycheck to paycheck. That's not okay. That's actually not okay in this country. That teachers. Public school teachers. Excuse me, public schools, teachers make what they make. So that was how that pivot happened from playing to. To the teaching side. And then when I was teaching, because we do live paycheck to paycheck as teachers, I was refereeing to make some extra money on the side. And people kept saying, well, why don't you do. I was doing high school. Then they said, well, why don't you do college? Why don't you try college? Okay, let's try college. So started with D3, then moved up to D2, D1, all while I'm teaching. It was insane.

09:18
Simone Jelks
I was grading papers on airplanes or grading papers on the car. In the car. And my mom would be driving me to the games. Wow. Yeah, it was a lot. Especially when I started reffing in the G League. That was a lot of time commitment. And so I was competing with other officials that they're younger and they live at home and they don't have any other job, and all of their. All they're doing is officiating, and then they're in the rule book. I was just working double time trying to make it.

09:54
Mara Kamat
What is G League?

09:56
Simone Jelks
That's like the D League team. That's like Major League Baseball has. What's their minor league? It's like the minor leagues for the NBA.

10:03
Mara Kamat
Great. Thank you.

10:04
Simone Jelks
So, yeah, that's where we start. To be an NBA referee, you have to go through the G League. So it's very competitive.

10:13
Carrie Aguilar
So I guess pivoting a little bit, because I'm sure you. You mentioned that you were competing against these other. Other refs that were. That had. Had just been refereeing. Can you dig into a little bit about the decision? Were you just like, okay, I'm, you know, like, it's either or, and I'm done teaching.

10:35
Simone Jelks
I would have liked. In an ideal world, I would have loved to be able to be a professional referee and a teacher, but I realized I can't be at the level I want to be. I can't be a professional referee and compete with these other referees who. The only thing they are doing is reffing so, like, I had to make that personal decision. And I remember our boss at the time, Monty McCutcheon, came up to me during a summer league game, and he said, like, what do you do? And I told him, I teach. He was like, are you serious about reffing? And I was like, I am. And he was like, okay. And then he kind of hinted to me, like, well, that was his way.

11:19
Carrie Aguilar
Of being like, yeah, be serious about reffing.

11:21
Simone Jelks
Yeah. So the next time I think I saw him, I was like, I'm in. Like, I'm 100% in. And so it was just. My career just shot up when I made the decision to give officiating my 100% undivided attention. It just. It shot up from there.

11:38
Carrie Aguilar
That's really interesting. I think so many women are. At least Mara and I were talking actually on the phone before this, and I was talking about all these different businesses that I have, and I was like, I just feel like I'm doing so much. And she was like, well, we just need to. You just need to, like, finesse. You just need to really, like, hone in on what you want to do. And I. This, like, resonates with me so much. So just, like, making the decision and just going for it.

12:06
Simone Jelks
And it was uncomfortable, too. Yeah, it was. It's a. It's very uncomfortable to just put everything in one basket.

12:13
Mara Kamat
You've been a referee now. How's that going for you? How does that feel? Like, did we make the right decision?

12:21
Simone Jelks
We did. Yes.

12:22
Mara Kamat
How do you know that? Like, for other women that are in.

12:26
Simone Jelks
That.

12:26
Mara Kamat
In between, that are evaluating, like, how did you know? At what point did you know this is the right decision for me?

12:33
Simone Jelks
I just. I could just feel it. I could feel the. There's a pride item. I'm very humble about my profession. Like, I don't bring it up, actually, ever when I meet people. What do you do? Like, I don't.

12:44
Carrie Aguilar
It's true. I met her, like, three times before she told me what she did, and I was like, are you kidding me? Why didn't we lead with this?

12:51
Simone Jelks
Yeah, I really don't. I don't bring it up, but when I do bring it up, it makes me reflect. Like, I see people's reactions when I tell them what I do, and I think that's how I know I made the right choice. Because I am in an incredibly challenging profession where there's only are very few spots. And to see people's reactions, like, wow, you do what? And it's like, Yeah, I do. Like, I am literally on the floor with the world's greatest athletes as a woman, as a black female, and it's inspiring. And I don't really look at myself as inspiring enough because I'm always very hard on myself. So I think that's how I know when I actually tell people what I do. And I. And I.

13:41
Simone Jelks
And I get the full effect of, like, no, like, you should really be proud of yourself. I'm like, yeah, I made the right decision.

13:48
Mara Kamat
That's really beautiful, and I appreciate you sharing it. It takes me back to when Simone walked in here today, and I asked her, like, hey, is there a game in Cleveland that you're reffing? I would love to bring my girls who are, you know, 9 and 12, because they were at the playoff game for the Cavs, and they saw that the Pacers had a female coach, they honed in on it. They called it out. They said, mom, look, they have a female coach. So, you know, back to your point. It's incredibly inspiring for other women, especially young women and this next generation to see the barriers that you're broken and what you're doing out there on the court.

14:28
Mara Kamat
So it's something that I think it's beautiful that you're humble, but also something you should be incredibly proud of and know that you're inspiring other young women.

14:38
Simone Jelks
Like, there was a moment this year, and I was at the scores table, stretching, and I had my head down like I normally do, just stretching, zoning out. Gentlemen walked behind the score table, and he was like, excuse me. Excuse me. And I look up, and he's like, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for what you do. And it was something about that. And I was like. I asked him, I said, you must have a daughter. And he said, I do. And so that, like, that's how I know I made the right choice.

15:08
Carrie Aguilar
I wanted to shift gears a little bit, to talk a little bit about confidence. How do you take up that space? How are you comfortable in that space?

15:18
Simone Jelks
What does that look like? So there is no class on confidence. I mean, there probably are classes on how to build your confidence, but I think my confidence definitely stems from different chapters of my life. And that's starting from when I was little, like, elementary school age. I grew up in South Euclid, and at the time, I was one maybe of. I was. There's probably a handful of black students I could count that went to my elementary school. So I was always in a spotlight or kind of just, you know, in a Place where people, I was noticed. So I had to build a lot of confidence kind of to be okay with that as a, you know, first grader, second grader, not knowing that my confidence was being built in that.

16:08
Simone Jelks
I also, several times when I was younger was on all boys teams, all boys soccer team, all boys golf team. So that's another thing. Without knowing, I'm building confidence in areas where I'm not supposed to be, right? But I'm sitting here and I just keep building these layers and layers of tough skin. And then I was brought up, I grew up in the church. I don't go to church every Sunday. But my foundation is very faith based. So I know that no matter what God is protecting me. He believes where he puts me is where I'm supposed to be. And I'm really grounded in. There's nothing that can happen that's going to break me. So like God is just always protecting me.

17:01
Simone Jelks
So my confidence is like, it just stems from a lot of different things that really, when you think about it, I've been maybe God knew I was gonna be an NBA rep all along and he just had all these chapters of my life preparing me. The NBA games are very fast paced, high pressure, lots of passionate players, lots of passionate coaches. Like I've been building for this moment. And then in high school, being a high school teacher in the inner city at an all boys school, these players are like my students, right? They just make a lot more money. It might be taller, it might be taller, but there's like nothing out there intimidates me because I've already seen it in different aspects. So my confidence has been growing for about 39 years now, shifting a bit.

17:51
Mara Kamat
From exploring this idea of confidence to now communication. There are some really intense situations that you face and the words that you choose, the approach that you have, it's probably really important to get your message across. Can you maybe share with us a little bit about that experience or maybe one experience in particular that stands out to you? How it felt and how you navigated maybe such tenuous times.

18:22
Simone Jelks
I think communication might be one of the hardest parts of the job because it's an art. You can't every person, you can't speak to everyone the same. You know, every player is not the same, every coach isn't the same. So you can't have the same generic response to every stakeholder out there. So it's really like your level of social, emotional intelligence has to be very high. You have to, in a matter of like three seconds after you make a call that you know someone's not going to like. You have to know who doesn't like your call, who's coming at you. You have to just evaluate how they're coming at you, what they're, you have to listen. What are they saying? Are they just venting because they're frustrated and they just need this time to vent?

19:12
Simone Jelks
Are they, are they really upset but actually want to know what the player, like, actually truly, genuinely want to know, like, what the player can do differently next time? Like, is there going to be some type of growth or some type of reciprocal exchange of information in this moment, or is this person just being completely disrespectful and an a hole? So there's all these things in the matter of a second when, after you call, make a call that you have to. That go through your head. And so it is tough. It's very tough.

19:48
Mara Kamat
How do you manage that for yourself so you don't just like blow up.

19:53
Simone Jelks
Back because you want to? A lot of times, you know, it's funny because Martell, my partner, is like, sometimes he'll say, why can't you talk to me like you talk to the players? Like, when you get mad at home, you are like. But when you're so professional when you're out there, I'm like, honey, that's my job. I have to be. Yeah, like when I'm home, like this, like when I'm home, give me a little bit of grace to like not be so professional. But I understand what he's saying.

20:19
Mara Kamat
But understanding and then wanting to change the behavior are two very different things.

20:22
Simone Jelks
Completely. Like, I'll work on it, honey. But no, like, you just have to, you have to realize that because it's so funny because normally how I am off the court, I wouldn't tolerate a lot of stuff. Like, I wouldn't, I would really check a lot of different things a different way. But when I am at work, I can't. I have a boss. I have to be professional. I have to watch my words. And so I just work on being patient and not responding right away, or I just work on. I've always, I'm a very empathetic person, always have been. So I do a really good job, or I think that I do a really good job trying to understand how people and why people are communicating the way they're communicating.

21:14
Simone Jelks
And that gives me a little time, the time I need to figure out how I'm going to respond to them. Because my responses are predicated on how they're communicating with me. So that gives me. When I'm thinking about, okay, how are you talking to me? And what do I think you want out of this? That literally gives me some time to figure out how I'm going to handle the situation.

21:38
Carrie Aguilar
I love that. So it's the root, it's almost like thinking about what's the intention or what's the root behind what they're saying.

21:44
Simone Jelks
Right. And I'll literally what they're saying, but.

21:45
Carrie Aguilar
It'S also like, actually, why. Why do you care about this so much?

21:49
Simone Jelks
Yeah, like I, There are times where I will literally say after. Like, I notice if someone's really. If a coach is just going like crazy, I might sit there and not say anything for the whole time and say, you know, what do you want out of this? Like, what did you want this moment to be? Is, would you like me to respond? I will. Sometimes I've said, do you want me to respond? Or. And you'd be surprised how many people would be like, I don't really know what, you know, like, I don't know what I want out of this. But I'm telling you, it's an art form. And it's probably the hardest part of refereeing because you understand that there's a lot at stake for these coaches and players that work this hard. But you know what? So do we.

22:33
Simone Jelks
So we all have to figure out how we're going to get through this game together.

22:38
Carrie Aguilar
Do you feel like the female referees have to communicate differently than the male referees?

22:47
Simone Jelks
No, I don't think that the gender and how we communicate. I don't think our gender affects how we communicate because we're all different.

22:59
Carrie Aguilar
So they're doing the same thing. Like, like the other refs are doing the same thing. They're, they're still evaluating, they're still react like they're still measuring their reactions. They're still.

23:11
Mara Kamat
And just like any human, some people do it better than others.

23:13
Simone Jelks
Right? Exactly.

23:15
Mara Kamat
I mean, we know that. We watch the Cavs games, we watch all the basketball games. We go to the playoffs. You know, it's something we enjoy. My girls are very passionate about and we enjoy doing as a family. And something that I love is seeing that there's more women in basketball. And you are a key part of this journey. There is a lot more momentum around women basketball right now, from packed arenas and the WNBA to record breaking college viewership. And that's a really exciting place to Be and maybe a shift. Can you tell us a little bit about how you see that and how you see, you know, more women coming into the sport?

23:57
Simone Jelks
I love it. It's, it's refreshing. I think that women from the beginning of time have always been there, We've always been here. And it's not a matter of capability. It's a matter of access and it's a matter of the powers that be. The male dominated industry is actually giving us a chance and then when we have our shot and we have our opportunity, being ready for it and really killing it. You know, like, I just, it's, I love it that the exposure, it seems the exposure has grown to the women that are just dominating in their fields. I just feel like there are also a lot of women who did not receive as much attention because the world was just not in the place that it's in now.

24:50
Simone Jelks
And I salute those women that have been doing this and have been putting in the work. And I'm just glad that it seems like society is finally just giving the exposure that's needed to these, to the women.

25:05
Mara Kamat
As you think about your career, have you had like mentors that were extremely influential for you? Can you tell us a little bit about what that's looked like for you?

25:13
Simone Jelks
So that's one of the downsides of my career, actually. I would say mentorship is the one big area of my career that has the biggest deficits. I struggled finding mentors that were genuine, that had motives, that were authentic and I developed trust issues with people. Yeah. So I actually I would see things I liked, I would take from here and there and. But my, so my circle is real small. With my friends, with my family. I'm a very, I have a very, just real close, tight knit group. But my mentorship, it was, that was not an area that was strong for me.

25:55
Mara Kamat
But I still think it's beautiful what you just said and something for our listeners to make sure they take away. You said you picked up things here and there. Right. So the things that were probably really great and maybe you even witnessed some things that weren't. And that has helped to shape you into who you are today and how you've built your own leadership and some of that. So even if you don't have access to that direct mentor, there's still ways to grow and develop yourself. And I love that you kind of shared your journey in doing that.

26:26
Simone Jelks
Yeah, it's. And a lot officials have mentors. That's such a, it's such an advantage to have a great mentor. But then like you said, if you don't have one, what are you going to do? Just give up? So you figure it out. You figure out how to teach yourself, how to educate yourself and you just keep going, keep grinding.

26:47
Carrie Aguilar
You've created quite a platform and a following as the all around badass that you are. Is there anything else or different that you'd love to be able to do with, like as a ref in the NBA or. I know that. Well, I know the NBA sponsors different things. Is there something that you want to have an impact on?

27:07
Simone Jelks
The NBA is an amazing company to work for on the officiating side of things. They really keep us anonymous and they like that. They want us to be anonymous. I would love for them to do more with exposing to the world, just the life officiating.

27:26
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah.

27:27
Simone Jelks
Yeah. Because I think that we could. Our outreach, it would just grow and people from different causes and things would be able to just be able to. It would be more tangible just being able to connect and network or even.

27:41
Carrie Aguilar
Just like a day in the life.

27:43
Simone Jelks
Yeah.

27:43
Carrie Aguilar
Because then you become more attainable, you become more normal and then when people get so upset, maybe they realize that they're getting upset as a person.

27:54
Simone Jelks
Right. It will, it would humanize us a lot more. Yeah.

27:58
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah, that makes sense.

28:00
Simone Jelks
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28:39
Mara Kamat
We understand you've written a book. We're gonna transition a bit. As our listeners know. I have always wanted to write a book. I'm in the process of writing one. Who knows when and if it'll be published at some point, but you have done it successfully and it is not about the NBA. Tell us a little bit about your book, what inspired it and then we'll talk a little bit about like your background and your family and your personal journey.

29:07
Simone Jelks
Okay. So this book is called One one A Gentleman's Guide to Dating Ambitious.

29:14
Mara Kamat
Women and something which every man means who's dating an ambitious woman.

29:20
Simone Jelks
Correct. If they need it. So it's really. It's there to help. It's guidance. It's like a scouting report. So I'm gonna use my basketball analogies. When you're playing a team scouting repeatedly. Yes. When you're playing a very tough team, coaches create scouting reports to help their players address challenges they may face in the game. I essentially wrote a book that was a scouting report to help men address challenges they may face when dating ambitious women.

29:54
Mara Kamat
I love this. What inspired this?

29:56
Simone Jelks
My exes. Very simple. I started. I had a conversation with my mom in the car coming back from officiating. I love this so much. A pro am game in Detroit. And I just opened up to her and I said, you know, mom, I don't understand why my professional life is just filled with accomplishment after accomplishment, yet my personal life and my relationships just struggle. They're just awful. It's just. It's not parallel. I don't understand what's going on. And we sat in the car ride and literally brought up everyone I used to date, and we're cracking up about what went wrong, what bullet I dodged in this one, what bullet I dodged. I mean, it was a whole thing. And my mom said, you should write a book. And we're just laughing, and I'm like, yeah, ha.

30:55
Simone Jelks
And then the first chapter would be called this. And it was like a basketball, like, shot clock. And it'd be about how, like, it just. It was just this huge car ride about making analogies about my ex, my past relationships, and how to help them and.

31:14
Mara Kamat
And in essence, help yourself, though, too, and help others.

31:18
Simone Jelks
Right.

31:18
Mara Kamat
To kind of, like, tear it apart, think about it, and then put some strategies in place.

31:24
Simone Jelks
Yeah.

31:24
Mara Kamat
Because listen, we are all ambitious women in this. We are not easy to manage and to be in relationships with.

31:32
Simone Jelks
We're not, I'm telling you, ambitious women, we all have our own unique differences. But generally speaking, ambitious women are different. We are very motivated, like, self goal oriented. Like, we're in the business of growth. And just complacency is not it. And so I think that a lot of men.

31:58
Carrie Aguilar
Complacency is not it.

31:59
Simone Jelks
It's not. And so, like, I just felt that if a man desired to want to. If a man desired to want to date an ambitious woman and was having some difficulties, then possibly this book or this, you know, scouting report could help him if he started to face some issues.

32:23
Mara Kamat
To be honest, it's funny, I always say to my husband and I were high school sweethearts, broke up for a Little while, got back together. And I really think the reason we've been able to, like, make it work is because we've grown together. And I say to him all the time, I said, God forbid something happens to you, and I'm out on my own. Nobody's gonna want me at this point because they're not gonna know how to manage all of this. But because we've grown together, he's learned how to manage me and my ambition and the goodness and the not so good pieces. And I him too. So that's awesome. It's. I mean, like, no marriage is perfect. Correct.

33:00
Mara Kamat
But it's beautiful to kind of step back and think about the art of investing in those relationships and thinking about what your partner needs as well.

33:09
Simone Jelks
Yep, Yep.

33:11
Carrie Aguilar
Now, I have a question. Did you, after you wrote the book, before you dated someone?

33:17
Simone Jelks
No, I was not. No, I did not sue her. Read the guy here is the scouting world. It was only for if you were having problems. So almost, I would say after that book, no, there were a couple people I dated. One read the book, still struggled. One was a complete narcissist, so he didn't even care about anything that was written on the pages. And then I met Martel. He never read the book. Never told him about the book. He didn't need to. He didn't need to.

33:48
Carrie Aguilar
I love that.

33:49
Mara Kamat
Beautiful.

33:50
Simone Jelks
Yeah.

33:51
Carrie Aguilar
That's wonderful.

33:52
Mara Kamat
You probably meet a lot of narcissists in your profession.

33:57
Carrie Aguilar
Everyone just loves themselves.

33:58
Mara Kamat
How do you manage that? Because I will tell you, I've worked with a lot of narcissists in my life, and that's exhausting.

34:04
Simone Jelks
It is. It is. Patience. Geez. A lot of patience. And then, like for my. My career, for example, just very strong backbone. And then also know. Know that when you're dealing with the narc, when someone with narcissistic tendencies, the correct answer is not always meeting them where they're at. You know, a lot can be accomplished by kind of maneuvering the situation where they still feel empowered, but at the end of the day, you still got your point across. So that's how I tend to deal with that.

34:38
Mara Kamat
There's an art to that.

34:40
Simone Jelks
Very much so.

34:41
Mara Kamat
Sometimes I'm good at that. Sometimes I make a choice to be bad at that. Keep up that art.

34:46
Simone Jelks
Yeah, I mean, it's like that at work, too. And it's like sometimes you'll say something and then you'll get in the hotel room and say, well, you know what? That didn't work tonight. You know, I'll make some adjustments. That one didn't work. That response didn't work tonight. So, you know, I'll make some adjustments next time.

35:06
Mara Kamat
We learn.

35:07
Simone Jelks
We do.

35:08
Carrie Aguilar
So, shifting gears, talking about family.

35:10
Simone Jelks
Yes.

35:11
Carrie Aguilar
I know that you have two sons and a stepdaughter, and I know that one of the sons is no longer here.

35:18
Simone Jelks
Correct.

35:19
Carrie Aguilar
So I'm sure. The lost maverick, right?

35:21
Simone Jelks
Yes.

35:22
Carrie Aguilar
And you have a son, Mecca, who.

35:23
Simone Jelks
Is almost 216 months.

35:27
Carrie Aguilar
Can you talk a little bit about what your life looks like during season, off season, how all of this. This beautiful tapestry of your life works?

35:41
Simone Jelks
Yes, it's definitely a tapestry. So during the season, I give Martell, that's dad. I give him the utmost. The utmost credit for holding the family down while I'm on the road. I'm literally gone from October to April to, like, the second week of April, and I might be home one or two days a week. That is a lot of away time from the family, and it's a lot of away time during the school year, which is such a busy time. And he also works full time, so he's like a single dad while I'm working. And then while I'm on the road, I have the mom guilt because I'm supposed to, you know, according to society, be home. I'm supposed to be the caregiver, the one that's pouring in the love and just all that good stuff. And so I'm on the road, working.

36:36
Simone Jelks
Can't hold my babies, can't, you know, check in. Well, I can check in on them, but a lot of It's FaceTime, right? Babies get sick, Mom's not home. You know, like, there's a lot of. Of guilt that I have when I'm on the road, but I have a really good village. Like, Martell's awesome as a dad. Just. I'm gonna tear up.

36:59
Mara Kamat
I'm, like, tearing up sitting over here because, like, I know what it's like to miss things and to have a sick kid and not be there, and it's not easy as a mom.

37:09
Simone Jelks
Yeah, it's very hard. But dad is awesome. He does the best he can. He does a great job. And then my parents help so much with the extracurriculars because I am the mom that, yes, I am enrolling the kids. Right. They're gonna. And what they're gonna do everything, you know, if. You know, if I can afford it and if my parents and I could. If I can find transportation to and from these events, they will be their lives. They will be exposed to a lot of different things. And I think that's. You know, my parents were like, that. We were involved in a lot of extracurriculars. It's just great for children development. It's great for all types of things.

37:53
Simone Jelks
And so I'm just, like, on the road, scheduling all this stuff, trying to do my job, but then also make sure everyone's getting to where they need to go when I'm not home. So I get finished with the game, I'm checking my phone. Was so and so here. Were they on time? I mean, it's a lot, right? It's a lot. And. But, like, what are you gonna do?

38:15
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah, it's what you do.

38:16
Simone Jelks
It's your life. That's my. It's my life. And. And I do find that I do burn myself out a lot because I will be tired from working. Come home, and nobody cares. Like, they don't know. Like, the kids don't know. Oh, you're tired. You're home. Like, go take a nap. You deserve it. They're like, no, mom's home. Stepmom's home. Like, I need to go.

38:42
Mara Kamat
I need that.

38:43
Simone Jelks
So I'm on the plane, like, drinking a Mountain Dew. Like, when this. When this plane lands, I've gotta go right into mom mode. So it's a lot on mentally and physically, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm proud of the job that I have. I wouldn't trade it for the world. And because of that, I'm gonna still be reffing, and I'm still gonna be trying to get everything accomplished as a mom. Hell, yes.

39:07
Mara Kamat
That's beautiful.

39:08
Carrie Aguilar
It's awesome.

39:09
Mara Kamat
And it's not easy. And, like, just know you have all the mom support and love, and, like, the village matters. I couldn't do it without our village. We've had a lot of travel in the last six weeks, a lot more than we typically do. And I lived in a job where I was on the road for several years all the time, and I miss things.

39:28
Simone Jelks
I don't get vacation time or personal days off. So, like, that's not built into our contract. So we're able. Like, we can. When we get our schedule every 30 days in advance, we're looking for the days we're home, right? So I'm like, okay, I'm home one day this week. Oh, that's my son's first birthday. Schedule a party, right? Then you get a call. We need you to be in. We need you to be in Milwaukee for a game. Party's canceled. Or mom won't be there. Like, there's. There are things like that happen all the time in our job that really just do numbers on your mental health. And you've got to be like, hey, this is part of the job. But secretly, deep down, you're like, come on. Yeah, come on.

40:16
Mara Kamat
How are you managing that for yourself in those moments?

40:19
Simone Jelks
Just, I try to keep things. My mom helps me a lot, keep things in perspective. Like, I'll vent to her. Like, I'll go off. I'll be like, mom, da, da, da. And she'll be like, listen, this is your job. Like, this is your job. It's your job. When you get home, you'll get home and you'll figure it out, and everybody will be glad you're home. So she just. She de. Escalates me.

40:44
Mara Kamat
Mom sounds like a pillar. Like a pillar of strength for you throughout all the stages of life.

40:50
Simone Jelks
Strongest woman I know.

40:52
Carrie Aguilar
Do you feel like. Well, let me take a step back. I didn't travel this as much when Penelope. This much meaning I'm pointing at you. Your travel schedule. However, I did travel considerably when Penelope was younger. What I found was, as we talk about it, she doesn't really remember. I don't know if this will make you feel better. She doesn't really remember the times that I was gone. She just remembers me being there and the times that were. That I was there. Like, it feels like those memories are even sweeter. And then on the flip side. So food for thought. There's that. And then on the flip side, I think it's, like, amazing that. And it needs to become more normal for people like Martel to, like. It doesn't.

41:39
Simone Jelks
It's.

41:40
Carrie Aguilar
It needs to be like. Like my husband James, he does. He did the same thing. It was not a. It's just what parenting is. It's just. It's a balance. And during the times you're gone, he holds up, you know, And. And if he had a job that.

41:56
Simone Jelks
Travel, you know, it would be.

41:58
Carrie Aguilar
It would be flipped.

41:59
Mara Kamat
The supportive partnership is important.

42:01
Simone Jelks
Yeah.

42:02
Mara Kamat
And the men who can be incredibly supportive partners or just like the people. Or the people.

42:08
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah.

42:08
Simone Jelks
Yeah.

42:09
Mara Kamat
It's so important. You're right. The people.

42:11
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah. Like, I mean, it doesn't have to be a man woman thing. It's just like, it's great to have someone.

42:16
Simone Jelks
Yeah.

42:16
Carrie Aguilar
That. That sees it encourages you and says, like, I got you and I got this. Cause this is mine too.

42:23
Simone Jelks
Yeah. It's really beautiful. And then sometimes when I find myself being Too hard. Like, I'll say, did Marlee make her bed this morning? I have to think, like, you know what? He's single handedly getting everyone up and the baby up and, like, getting to work on time getting them. Like, I have to take a step back and be like, okay, Psycho Simone, like, just say, like, you're doing a great job. And I have to catch myself because it's like this fort and one of us has to keep it held up when the other has to go out and go hunting and he is holding that sucker up.

42:59
Carrie Aguilar
So I take it you enjoy spending time with your family in the off season?

43:02
Simone Jelks
That's all I want to do. It's all I want to do. I don't want to do anything else. But when I'm home, I just want to be around my family. I just want to love on them because there's so many moments I don't get to.

43:15
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah.

43:16
Simone Jelks
So, yeah, I don't. You know, I think we're going one vacation this summer. That's all I need. I don't. I don't want to be gone again. Like, I don't want to be in. I don't want to pack another suitcase at all. So.

43:29
Mara Kamat
And how old are your kids now?

43:31
Simone Jelks
Mecca's 16 months. Marley is eight. She'll be nine in June. So, yeah, they're growing up fast.

43:37
Mara Kamat
They are. Are you done now having kids with this?

43:41
Simone Jelks
Yeah, I'm done. Because we lost our first son two years ago at 40 weeks. No red flags, no bad health checkups. I literally had contractions going to the hospital on my due date and they couldn't find the heartbeat. So the trauma of that. I'm sorry, the trauma of that, like, and then the anxiety of being pregnant right after that and then having Mecca, like, no, I'm done.

44:11
Mara Kamat
I get that it's a lot.

44:13
Simone Jelks
Yeah, it is.

44:14
Mara Kamat
It's a lot. But you have two beautiful children who are healthy and you get to be mom, too, and also have this beautiful career.

44:25
Simone Jelks
Yes. Marlee's my bonus daughter and she is. Our blended family is just amazing. There's just a lot of love. A lot of love.

44:34
Mara Kamat
That's amazing. So one question we love to ask everybody and it's totally taking us from this sad moment.

44:42
Simone Jelks
I know.

44:42
Mara Kamat
I'm like, let me to a different one. No, it's not easy.

44:48
Simone Jelks
No, it's not. When we lost Maverick, I actually went back to. We lost him in October and I went back to work in February and my boss was like, you don't have to Come back. I said, no, I need to come back or I'm going to, like, I need something to do to get my mind off of this. So it was really awesome. That is where I think I gained a lot more. I gained something, and I can't even describe it. I can't describe it right now, but I was not. I was a different person as a referee and as a. And as an individual when I came back to work after losing my son. But it was like, for the better. Like, I just felt stronger.

45:33
Simone Jelks
I felt just like, there's nothing that can happen in this game that will break me because I've been in a very. I've seen the darkness. There's not a coach's complaint. There's not a. There's not a call. There's nothing that can break me. I felt very unstoppable when I came back to work. And I was a little nervous because I was. Still had my baby weight on me. But I'm just like, you guys have no clue. And it's funny because when you go back, when something like that happens, the world continues being the world. And unless someone asked me, they would say, where have you been at? I always. I just felt so inspired to use that, like, testimony to humanize referees. I would say, oh, well, you know where I was at, I was burying. I was cremating my son.

46:24
Simone Jelks
You know, I lost a son. And people would be, like, not ready for that response, you know, at all. But it was weird. Cause I just, like, keep on, like, doing my thing. But I'm like, I want you to know. Like, I wanted everybody to know who asked where I had been at. Just to let you know, the game, like, life is more than this game.

46:41
Mara Kamat
Well, I think it's also important, too.

46:43
Simone Jelks
To show.

46:46
Mara Kamat
That you're human and that vulnerable side of who you are. Because there are so many people that are playing that game or involved in that game or watching that game that have also had these really hard human experiences. And maybe they don't feel like they can talk about it, or maybe they don't feel. And you give them that permission and that hope to see what life looks like on the other side after having gone through something really tough.

47:14
Simone Jelks
Yeah. Cause we. I mean, I remember immediately publicizing on my social media account that we had lost Maverick. And I felt like I had to, because, like, things like that don't happen without a reason. And I was like, God's. Like, this happened, and God wants me to do something with it. So I think it absolutely. Whoever it Helped, like, whoever saw that we lost our son, I hope it helped them with their journey and their. And their grief. I know for sure a lot of people reached out to Martell and were like, oh, my God, this happened. This happened to me. Or, like, my wife and I lost. Had four miscarriages. I mean, it was. It was. It was crazy, the amount of people that were responding to it and that. There was a. A trainer, and I think it was Chicago's arena.

48:02
Simone Jelks
And he asked, where you been at? And I told him, and he, like, had this whole story about how many losses he and his wife had, and it was. It was. I don't know. Like, it was an awful experience, but it was also something that I knew and I felt inside. No people are gonna know. And it just made me. I'm telling you, I feel so strong out there after going through this, because.

48:29
Carrie Aguilar
Nothing can break you.

48:30
Simone Jelks
I mean, and I thought I was confident before and strong. I'm telling you, I'm out there, and I'm like, that's it?

48:37
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah.

48:37
Simone Jelks
Yeah, that's all you got. Try giving birth vaginally to a sleeping baby. Oh, God. You know, like, that was my take on it. So I was like.

48:48
Mara Kamat
I mean, you have an incredible strength, and I really appreciate you sharing it so honestly and openly because it's not an easy thing to share. But I know that there's people out there who have had struggles, and seeing how you come out on the other side and the strength that you're bringing to life now.

49:05
Carrie Aguilar
We always like to end our conversations with this question, and it feels like it's actually apropos because we've already ascertained that Maverick has brought you so much. What's bringing you joy right now?

49:19
Simone Jelks
My family, my babies. Just watching them grow and learn and become better people just on a daily basis. Parenting is not easy at all. But I get so much joy when, like, I can be tough mom and tough stepmom and still see the kids have love for me.

49:40
Carrie Aguilar
Yeah.

49:40
Simone Jelks
It's like I'm doing the right thing, and that brings me joy. Like, all of this hard work is not for nothing. And just seeing them constantly, just learning and growing and being better, Those two are my joy and my maverick. He's my joy, too.

49:59
Carrie Aguilar
That's wonderful, Simone.

50:01
Mara Kamat
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us. It was so beautiful to get to know you, to hear your journey in work and in life, and just to hear the challenges that you've overcome and the positivity and gratitude that you bring to life in your day in the midst of challenging things that we've all faced. Thank you for tuning in to In Her Land. If you love this conversation, please share it with a friend, leave us a review and keep following along at inherland.com where we highlight more incredible women making an impact. Until next time.

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